This pattern occurred to me several days prior. I have experimented with sonnets containing word-wise or word count haiku in one form or another. And have made some notes regarding some that I might soon attempt.
I have never, on the other hand, written a sonnet in terza-rima which at that time a few days ago, also struck me as an ideal rhymescheme for embedded haiku. But even more recently, yesterday evening on my way home from running a few errands, it suddenly made some sense to me that if I concluded the sonnet with an embedded tanka, I would not need to include a 15th line or include an extra line representing a rather long title (in iambic pentameter.) In this way, I believe I might combine these two oriental forms with sonnet form seamlessly.
Furthermore, having considered the fusion of the two and/or three forms at some length, I have devised five differing rhymeschemes as shown in the diagram below:
line words Rhymescheme: 1 2 3 4 5 ----------------------------------------------- 1) 5 A A A A A 2) 7 B B B B B 3) 5 A A A C A 4) 5 B B A A C 5) 7 C A B C B 6) 5 B C C D C 7) 5 C A C B D 8) 7 D C D C E 9) 5 C D C D D 10) 5 D C C B F 11) 7 E D D D E 12) 5 D E E E F 13) 5 [7] E D F E G 14) 7 [x] [D] E [D] D [F] 15) 5 [7] E [D] F [E] G ------------------------------------------------ .
In all cases, I believe line 14 (the one with the ‘x’) would be omitted in favour of the tanka termination. This would give a 7 word concluding couplet rhyme to end each piece regardless of which of the five rhymeschemes I might use.
I therefore am getting a bit closer to writing something specifically for Kanzensakura–something I would very much like to do.
David Emeron: Sonnets 
The maths in your poetry terrifies me.
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Boo!!! (though they are not apparent in the final versions ; )
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No one even notices the form when I write in fixed form. I get people making suggestions and you then have to explain that it would destroy the whole structure of the piece.
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I have not encountered that behaviour yet, but I am known, to the small degree that I am known, as a writer of sonnets; so I would imagine that might have something to do with it.
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Indeed that would help. I took a poetry module last year before dropping creative writing from my degree. Feedback on fixed form was always infuriating.
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I see. Peer review then? I am too set in my ways to have participated in it. My last stint at school, “required” quite a lot of it. And I simply refused to engage in it. I would explain to the professor that my 20K per quarter was paying for expert advice only. They always relented in the face of a firm hand.
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And who’s to say that the experts are always right. We don’t write purely for those in the upper eons of literary circles but for anyone who care to pick up a book.
Your point is very valid but peer review has its values as well as its failings.
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That is true. But I choose, as it were, to choose my peers as well as my experts. And I believe I felt your frustration and humiliation at the prospect of such random peer review. Paulo Freire, the developer and early advocate and adopter of the practice admits quite openly–in his overly wordy manner–that a good part of the technique is to humiliate the student. To bring him into line with the others. Make him feel less the individual and more part of the group. I therefore have all the more reason to reject his ideas. Which, in fact are the ideas which produce the infuriating peer reviewers such as you describe.
Still, your point is well taken. When I choose my friends and peers, when I know their scope and respect their knowledge, I am happy, and most willing and able to engage in such a process.
And of course… : ) I claim my age as a privilege to eschew it unless I feel it to benefit all parties involved. This is, in large part why I don’t “give crit” as they say here in the blogosphere–even when asked to do so. In addition, I feel people’s work, particularly as regards poetry, is too personal for that. They are pouring their hearts out to me and others, so I take it as such.
Plus, another thing to consider is that budding writers are anything but ordinary readers. As such if I were of a mind to submit to publishers, I would be much more interested in the opinions of ordinary (non-writing) people rather than MFA candidates. Such people give much more useful advice than writing classmates, in my experience. They can make clear what a reader will understand or relate to, misconstrue, etc. That kind of information is much more valuable than that of aspiring writers.
But, on the other hand, I don’t mind such information from any source. I do keep my salt shaker handy, however. This is why my comment prompt is “Insults make me happy.” I believe people will show their true colours more quickly, or if their intent is ill intent–because when someone is a stranger to you there is no guarantee that his criticism is not borne out of Avarice or one of the other deadly sins, rather than a desire to improve your work. There is simply no guarantee unless you know a person well. So that is why I state here that I am very choosy indeed.
Plus I know for a fact that behind all obfuscation, Mr. Friere’s motives, as well as those of his disciples–and they are many–are less than benevolent. And this is putting it quite mildly.
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And I would very much like to read it!!!! I feel most honored. I did do a “long” haiku sometime last year, I think? can’t remember perzactly but it is is desert something or other – just to play with it. I think I bumbled a few verses’ rythms but stayed close. I am so looking forward to this and think it would be so very insteresting and of course, a new poetry form is always sensational. You may start something, David.
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haha, Maybe… Maybe not. It strikes me as too “worky” for many. But I’ll admit my diagram makes it seem more complicated than it is… : )
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Not really. Being a student of ballroom dancing, such counts make sense to me and are easily followed. also, the counts for haiku and tanka are like pulse beats, so familiar are the rhythms. and then again, I am just sometimes……strange. When I get home from work, I am definitely going to have a couple of thimblefuls of an excellent sake I have found from Shizuoka prefecture….pears, melons, asian apples – oh my – dry, medium acid, pale gold with cloud swirls as it is unfiltered. very happy sake.
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Ah, you are a breath of fresh air, particularly this morning….
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Then tonight when engineers and their anal ways are behind me, I shall lift my beautiful celadon thimble full of that precious sake in your honor. so that will make 3 instead of 2. And if the engineers are too anal, there will be a tiny cup lifted in honor of your bride. and should I empty the bottle, it shall dashed in the hearth of our fireplace for the damnation of Marxists and their doubly anal ways.
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In fact I desperately need to put this blog away for awhile and do something more relaxing. The young and foolish are going to give me an aneurysm this morning with their marxist indoctrination. I cannot save them all. I cannot in reality save even one. Although this morning, if I could waive a magic wand I would cause Mr. Paulo Freire (the father of marxist education theory, in case you have never heard of him) to vanish from existence long before he was born. Star Trek style, baby!
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I think we need holodecks. I know I need one to lift me beyond these tawdry diggers of culverts and whiners of those who mislike the regulations because it does not pertain to them and their individual style which makes the regulations that guard the health, safety, and welfare of the folks in this fair commonwealth to be bull*^%% in their eyes and stupid. In fact, if I could just prove string theory, I would use it to transport them to another space and time away from here. Am I irritated with them? Oh my yes, I am.
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My Sweet Mrs. Emeron feels I should invest in an “Everlast” bag where I might put my rusty Kung Fu skills to some practical use. It seems a bit silly at my age…. But … I must admit… there are those times…. Perhaps I will…
I wish my Gym had one or two but it is not “that” kind of Gym. One of my colleagues is a member of a “rich person’s Gym,” or she so calls it, which has everything imaginable. But she has an agent who procures her these things–and even though the cost is not exactly prohibitive (relatively speaking) it seems excessive to me. Although… as such things go, I do think it is time for a change. I have belonged to LA fitness since some time in the 1980ies. And… they used to be 24 hour and I have stayed with them even though their schedule now conflicts with my strange sleep patterns. I may switch at least to one of the 24 hour variety when my contract is up–which is probably at least a year away, alas.
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That’s what I like about kendo and sword play – a shonai is all you need – and someone to bang against. I have a tree I bang against and several small trees have become victim to my sword, if not exactly my skill. But I did go for 5h level a couple of weeks ago in kendo and passed. Otherwise, I’m no much on gyms. I feel intimidated around tall, svelte people in nice clothes. Being a short round person in Walmart sweats doesn’t help me either. So…I…hide.
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HAHA! If one is looking to see fine sculpted examples of the human form, the Gym is NOT the place to see them. Let me here dispel that myth right here and now!!
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Apparently, I went to one of those stylish ones. I didn’t even go back to get my $1 trial month membership refunded I was so embarrassed.
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One does not really “need” the gym, in any case. But for me… I suppose it is a help mentally. It gives one a sense of “I was doing that… but NOW, I am doing THIS.”
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Ya know, Amazon sells “work out stuff” at a good variety and price. I think an Everlast bag would be cool.
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I have been browsing them ever since our last mention of such things. Perhaps I will give in soon….
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But then I am partial. It was at a kendo tournament my love and I met – he in that almost fetish looking gear with handsome face and hair pulled into the antique warriors knot. Tall and handsome and me – short, tiny, plain. His grace with the katana and the wazikashi tucked into his obi -ceremonial and deadly – a silent dragon draped in black on black cherry blossom embroidered silk. Oh David, of such epic poems are written.
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I can only imagine–and perhaps watch some more Amine : ) Lately, Mrs. Emeron and I have been enjoying something entitled “Hero Tales.”
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Wow! Thanks for the knowledge-share! Now, I gotta really work at it! I’ve never written to a rhyme or meter, but there’s always a first. Thank you David!
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You are quite welcome. Yes, it is interesting that so many are willing to “go the extra mile,” as it were, to share what they have learned or discovered, even if for no particular reason, is it not? It is quite a blessing that the internet has made this very easy to accomplish.
Rhyme and meter are elements of a language that all of us may share. Even in this the “net” may assist us. And like any endeavour, passion and practice is all we need in addition to all this readily available information.
Good luck to you, whether you choose to rhyme or not : )
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Always a learner, David! Eternal quest for knowledge keeps us afloat!
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Yes, I concur.
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The poetry template looks like a riot, my dearest. I look forward to seeing what you do with it.
I would very much like to have a Kanzen Sakura of my own. May I please, Dear, Please?! Sometimes in life one finds perfection — just what one was looking for but didn’t know exactly what it was.
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There must be some kind of adoption papers for this….
Thank you My Dearest One. I have actually added to the forms listed there. So there are several more terza-types i have discovered since this posting.
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And again, thank you. I have been playing with renga and a modified cinquain. Again, playing because of my small but persistent talents. One day, my talent grow up and I’ll maybe ….. nope, don’t think so, come within screaming distance of your great talent.
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If you plan to try one of these, I would suggest you write it in stages, modifying the word count last.
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